It's interesting. I'm a cradle Orthodox who went on a long journey back home. I used to be wildly ecumenist and I like how you compared it to music appreciation and not getting stuck in a genre. But-
And this is in fact not me yelling at you.
This is just some sober reflection from someone who has been to a lot of spiritual discotechs;
Orthodoxy is *the* medicine. It's medicine for a sick and bleeding world, and all of us kooky, angst-ridden, poured out sinners. Everything else, even other branches of Christianity, will have shards of beauty, reflective gems of glorious truth, but they are not the Cure.
Obviously the old evangelical grandma is in the "beloved by Christ" club. But that doesn't make evangelical Christianity and Orthodoxy "the same" which is really why ecuminism is dangerous.
Being anti-ecumenical Is not about Christ excluding people from his body; it's about humans being crystal clear what the medicine is and what it is not.
The Mormon tradition is quite beautiful, I spent a lot of time in Utah when I was a recording artist. I toured and I have a lot of awe and respect for LDS faith. And, they have some extremely confusing beliefs and interpretations about who Christ is that make receiving his medicine more convoluted than it needs to be. Do I think God is going to send well meaning people to hell because they wanted to be close to Christ? Absolutely not.
Are there traditions in Mormonism that put well meaning folk in danger of straying from God; yes, there are. Not in an abstract "they believe the wrong thing" but in a real legitimate day to day lived reality way.
My deep love and appreciation for all cultures and creatures just does not extend to the confusions/idols/gods/demons/whathaveyou that oppress them.
I'm not ecumenical precisely because I love all of humanity. Why would I pretend every bottle in the chemist is the same when there is only one sure antidote to the venom of sin?
This all seems so *obviously* correct to me that I often don't even regard myself as belonging to the same religion as the exclusivists, whose disposition is very foreign. As I write in my book:
“'Not all who say My name will be saved,' declared Jesus. That makes sense enough, given that salvation is first and foremost a matter of an inner turning of the heart, a rising of the living soul. Any charlatan or hypocrite could recite a mere series of words for the sake of his own personal gain, and a deity who fell for such a gambit would not be worth believing in. But the Lord sees straight through us, and so of course not all who say the name will be saved, since the word itself is impotent if it isn’t backed by sincerity and conviction. The other way around, however, must also be correct: many who don’t say the name are surely saved as well. This point follows from the fact that the whole game has to do with the status of the heart, and not always a formal confession of faith that may or may not be uttered by any given person. If a man’s heart is in the right place, then in principle it should matter little if he 'officially' believes in Jesus—since his heart already does, irrespective of whether his tongue and mind decide to comply."
You don’t have to be “an ecumenist” to believe this: “I saw her praying these beads and I could not escape the knowledge that God hears her and loves her. “Behold, I stand at the door and knock” — whoever said that “opening” requires a particular set of ideas to be held consciously by the mind? Who could maintain this?” All the ortho-bros in conversations with Ortland (a convo I’m sure you just love) can and do regularly affirm the same thing. People respond to God with the grace they’ve received, and the Spirit works throughout the world. Yet there is one church into which all will be grafted, if they will be saved, because there is one body, one cup, one baptism, not many.
As for LDS—it’s pretty much North American Islam—a religion founded by a man receiving “revelation” from what was almost certainly a demonic entity. People beloved by God, seeking Him as they are able, but under a big cloud of delusion.
And all this is not to deny that I also am under a big cloud of delusion—but I also believe the Church is the hospital in which I will encounter the physician and receive the medicine of immortality, and healing.
For an excellent deep study on Mormonism, can’t recommend strongly enough the hit song, “Mormon Space Wives” by Jay Dyer.
Love this. It's one of the biggest things I struggle with within Orthodoxy. Yes, I'm here because I believe in my heart it's the best expression of and way to Christ. But when I get caught of in thinking about the divisions it actually sends me mentally to a place that is very far from Christ. I cannot get caught up in the mentality of parsing out divisions. Even when recognizing things that are in error with certain beliefs, still, I see God's work and presence everywhere.
My ex mother in law, with whom I've ironically grown quite close, is that Evangelical grandmother you speak of. She *loves* Jesus with all her heart. Goes to church weekly, reads the Bible every day, has turned to Christ through every struggle she's had in her life- which have been many. Is she not part of Christ's body because she's not Orthodox? Nonsense. I think protestantism has twisted much of the nuts and bolts of theology, but she embodies the pure spirit.
When Paul asked on the road to Damascus “”Who are you, Lord?” The Lord didn’t say something deep and theological like the Cosmic Christ, the Logos, the True Light, the Ground of All Being. He said, “I am Jesus of Nazareth”, that earthy humanity is part of the core of we encounter in our Savior in the here and now.
Years ago as an earnest Evangelical I shared along the lines of John 3:16 with a young dental hygienist who was Mormon. She considered my words and quietly said to herself, “I can accept that”. I had nothing more to say.
John 3:16 God so loved the world he gave his only Begotten Son that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Also pertinent to your post.
“Master, said John, “We saw someone driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us.”
“Do not stop him,” Jesus said, “for whoever is not against you is for you.” Luke 9:49-50
It's helpful to reflect on how Jesus interacted with the heterodox Samaritans. He didn't shun them, persecute them, or condemn them to hell, but praised their love for God and neighbor. Yet His dialogue with the Samaritan woman was focused on true worship and His own identity rather than on treating their respective religions as equivalent. I think Orthodox participants in ecumenical and interfaith dialogue should approach our non-Orthodox neighbors in similar ways, affirming all that is true and good in what they believe and do, but also bearing witness to the true Faith we have received.
On a waning gibbous moon in Capricorn opposite Jupiter in Cancer it is possible to appreciate and love all these things, for their varied practicalities and workmanship and time-tested way. Just this once. Next one Jupiter will be into Leo and there may be some position to defend or point to prove or allegiance to display. Enjoy the music!
It's interesting. I'm a cradle Orthodox who went on a long journey back home. I used to be wildly ecumenist and I like how you compared it to music appreciation and not getting stuck in a genre. But-
And this is in fact not me yelling at you.
This is just some sober reflection from someone who has been to a lot of spiritual discotechs;
Orthodoxy is *the* medicine. It's medicine for a sick and bleeding world, and all of us kooky, angst-ridden, poured out sinners. Everything else, even other branches of Christianity, will have shards of beauty, reflective gems of glorious truth, but they are not the Cure.
Obviously the old evangelical grandma is in the "beloved by Christ" club. But that doesn't make evangelical Christianity and Orthodoxy "the same" which is really why ecuminism is dangerous.
Being anti-ecumenical Is not about Christ excluding people from his body; it's about humans being crystal clear what the medicine is and what it is not.
The Mormon tradition is quite beautiful, I spent a lot of time in Utah when I was a recording artist. I toured and I have a lot of awe and respect for LDS faith. And, they have some extremely confusing beliefs and interpretations about who Christ is that make receiving his medicine more convoluted than it needs to be. Do I think God is going to send well meaning people to hell because they wanted to be close to Christ? Absolutely not.
Are there traditions in Mormonism that put well meaning folk in danger of straying from God; yes, there are. Not in an abstract "they believe the wrong thing" but in a real legitimate day to day lived reality way.
My deep love and appreciation for all cultures and creatures just does not extend to the confusions/idols/gods/demons/whathaveyou that oppress them.
I'm not ecumenical precisely because I love all of humanity. Why would I pretend every bottle in the chemist is the same when there is only one sure antidote to the venom of sin?
This all seems so *obviously* correct to me that I often don't even regard myself as belonging to the same religion as the exclusivists, whose disposition is very foreign. As I write in my book:
“'Not all who say My name will be saved,' declared Jesus. That makes sense enough, given that salvation is first and foremost a matter of an inner turning of the heart, a rising of the living soul. Any charlatan or hypocrite could recite a mere series of words for the sake of his own personal gain, and a deity who fell for such a gambit would not be worth believing in. But the Lord sees straight through us, and so of course not all who say the name will be saved, since the word itself is impotent if it isn’t backed by sincerity and conviction. The other way around, however, must also be correct: many who don’t say the name are surely saved as well. This point follows from the fact that the whole game has to do with the status of the heart, and not always a formal confession of faith that may or may not be uttered by any given person. If a man’s heart is in the right place, then in principle it should matter little if he 'officially' believes in Jesus—since his heart already does, irrespective of whether his tongue and mind decide to comply."
So well said.
You don’t have to be “an ecumenist” to believe this: “I saw her praying these beads and I could not escape the knowledge that God hears her and loves her. “Behold, I stand at the door and knock” — whoever said that “opening” requires a particular set of ideas to be held consciously by the mind? Who could maintain this?” All the ortho-bros in conversations with Ortland (a convo I’m sure you just love) can and do regularly affirm the same thing. People respond to God with the grace they’ve received, and the Spirit works throughout the world. Yet there is one church into which all will be grafted, if they will be saved, because there is one body, one cup, one baptism, not many.
As for LDS—it’s pretty much North American Islam—a religion founded by a man receiving “revelation” from what was almost certainly a demonic entity. People beloved by God, seeking Him as they are able, but under a big cloud of delusion.
And all this is not to deny that I also am under a big cloud of delusion—but I also believe the Church is the hospital in which I will encounter the physician and receive the medicine of immortality, and healing.
For an excellent deep study on Mormonism, can’t recommend strongly enough the hit song, “Mormon Space Wives” by Jay Dyer.
“Deep study” and “Jay Dyer” do not belong in the same sentence
Do you like jokes? Watch it and try not to laugh or tap your toe!
Love this. It's one of the biggest things I struggle with within Orthodoxy. Yes, I'm here because I believe in my heart it's the best expression of and way to Christ. But when I get caught of in thinking about the divisions it actually sends me mentally to a place that is very far from Christ. I cannot get caught up in the mentality of parsing out divisions. Even when recognizing things that are in error with certain beliefs, still, I see God's work and presence everywhere.
My ex mother in law, with whom I've ironically grown quite close, is that Evangelical grandmother you speak of. She *loves* Jesus with all her heart. Goes to church weekly, reads the Bible every day, has turned to Christ through every struggle she's had in her life- which have been many. Is she not part of Christ's body because she's not Orthodox? Nonsense. I think protestantism has twisted much of the nuts and bolts of theology, but she embodies the pure spirit.
<3 <3 <3
When Paul asked on the road to Damascus “”Who are you, Lord?” The Lord didn’t say something deep and theological like the Cosmic Christ, the Logos, the True Light, the Ground of All Being. He said, “I am Jesus of Nazareth”, that earthy humanity is part of the core of we encounter in our Savior in the here and now.
Years ago as an earnest Evangelical I shared along the lines of John 3:16 with a young dental hygienist who was Mormon. She considered my words and quietly said to herself, “I can accept that”. I had nothing more to say.
John 3:16 God so loved the world he gave his only Begotten Son that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Also pertinent to your post.
“Master, said John, “We saw someone driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us.”
“Do not stop him,” Jesus said, “for whoever is not against you is for you.” Luke 9:49-50
Let us not be against each other
I would be full blown perennialist if it weren´t for Jesus and the marvelous impact it had in my life, I just can´t deny it.
Nor can I, Jesus is at the center of it all, which is also why I can’t be a perennialist. But I do see Jesus at work in a great many places!
great collection. love me some Fela Kuti too.
Yessir, I figured you would!
Freak and weirdo here, have been enjoying your stuff. <3
I read this immediately after posting about ecumenism - seems I was swept up by the same wave this night.
P.S. You are making me flip out just a little with the Mormonism. ;-)
It's helpful to reflect on how Jesus interacted with the heterodox Samaritans. He didn't shun them, persecute them, or condemn them to hell, but praised their love for God and neighbor. Yet His dialogue with the Samaritan woman was focused on true worship and His own identity rather than on treating their respective religions as equivalent. I think Orthodox participants in ecumenical and interfaith dialogue should approach our non-Orthodox neighbors in similar ways, affirming all that is true and good in what they believe and do, but also bearing witness to the true Faith we have received.
On a waning gibbous moon in Capricorn opposite Jupiter in Cancer it is possible to appreciate and love all these things, for their varied practicalities and workmanship and time-tested way. Just this once. Next one Jupiter will be into Leo and there may be some position to defend or point to prove or allegiance to display. Enjoy the music!